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For Voice Over Talents

Voiceover Talent Alone Won’t Pay the Bills

August 20, 2016 by Debbie Grattan

Voiceover Talent Alone Won't Pay the Bills

Mozart wasn’t born great. And the same holds true for any phenomenal musician, artist, engineer, writer, party clown or voiceover talent you may want to be or hire. While great talent was once thought to be innate, research psychologist Anders Ericsson argues it is something most people can achieve, in just about any area, as long as they’re willing to put in the work required to get it.

He also argues that even if folks are born with great talent in any given field, their talent will amount to nothing unless, again, they put in that hard work. After listening to Ericsson backing up his points in this podcast, I’m inclined to agree. And I can definitely see how the ideas he gleaned from decades of research apply to voiceover talent.

Voiceover Talent Alone Won't Pay the Bills

Talent Alone Won’t Pay the Bills

From the TV show “America’s Got Talent,” to schools that offer gifted and specialized fine arts programs, talent is often hailed as a genetic blessing that doubles as the magic secret to success. Ericsson calls it “grotesquely” overrated.

Here’s where Mozart comes in, as his brilliance was not necessarily built into his genetic code but rather developed from working long, hard and persistently at his music from an early age. Even if he were born with natural musical abilities, if he didn’t back up the abilities with hard work, he’d be foiled time and again by another born with those same abilities who decided to focus on honing them.

The concept can hit especially hard for voiceover talent newcomers who dive into the industry after someone praised them for being a “natural” with inborn talent. Unless they strengthen their abilities with lots of work, training and dedication, that person’s praise is likely to be the only thing they’ll get out of their voiceover career.

My own voice acting background and bio includes a degree in drama; many years of experience on stage, on camera and behind the microphone; additional training under esteemed voiceover mentors and teachers; and more than 22 years actually working in the industry. Such a combination is what can lead to success, in spite of the fact that I was not a child voiceover talent phenom, able to deliver flawless reads at the age of ten.

Voiceover Talent Success Requires Focus

Purposeful Practice 

Practice is another way to sharpen or develop specific skills. But you don’t want to practice anything and everything related to your field just for the heck of it. Ericsson points out the most effective way to go about it is with what he calls purposeful practice, or selecting a single aspect to improve and then working on improving it.

My initial degree was in drama, which gave me a solid scope of acting know-how. But once I realized I wanted to focus on voiceover acting, I had to fine tune my practice throughout the years, to focus on the specific voiceover skills that I wanted to develop.

The same narrow focus can apply to other voiceover talent and voice actors who want to strengthen a particular skill or aspect of their performance. Perhaps they want to work on their timing (for commercial work), their clarity of vocal delivery (for complicated narration or elearning long form) or the pitch or resonance of their voice (for movie trailers and promos). Purposeful practice would involve choosing exercises and training that focus on those specific aspects, and then buckling down until they’ve mastered their weakness.

Deliberate Practice Helps Voiceover Talent Reach Mastery

Deliberate Practice

Even if you engage in purposeful practice focusing on a single aspect you want to improve, you don’t want to dive in without a set goal in mind. Here’s where what Ericsson calls deliberate practice kicks in.

Deliberate practice involves creating well-defined, specific goals, typically working under experts who can help teach you what you want to master. It additionally demands near-maximal effort – and is usually not very enjoyable.

Think of the runner pushing herself daily to break her record time. Imagine the pianist banging out the same score, day after day until he gets it down flawlessly. Perhaps the most concrete example of near-maximal effort comes from the bodybuilder.

Unless bodybuilders push their muscles to the near-maximum limit on a regular basis, no growth or improvements will be made. And unless you’re a fan of sweat, aching fingers and shaking limbs, none of these practice sessions can be referred to as particularly enjoyable.

Deliberate practice in the voiceover talent arena can definitely involve training under voiceover coaches and actors who have both experienced their own success and know how to teach others to achieve the same. Near-maximal effort can involve days or weeks of repeating the same drill, exercise or script until the results are divine and the techniques veritably ingrained in your brain.

Voiceover Talent Need to Challenge Themselves Regularly

Deliberate Practice vs. Experience

Even though deliberate practice typically involves somewhat painful repetition, it is not the same as the repetition of experience. Only the former is designed to help you improve. Ericsson uses doctors as an example here, mentioning that doctors with tons of experience aren’t necessarily consistently getting better unless their experience includes new lessons along the way.

Voiceover talent can also find this to be true if they stick with the exact same type of projects year after year with no desire to alter their output in any way. The end result can be boredom, the feeling of being stuck in a rut, a stale delivery – and being left in the dust by other voiceover actors who choose to keep growing, practicing and improving.

Constant Improvement is Key for Voiceover Talent

Why Voiceover Talent Need to Keep Improving

In addition to becoming bored and stale with any given task, job or career, it’s vital to keep improving if you want to stay in the game. Any game. That’s because the world keeps improving.

We can again go back to Mozart here, noting that his musical abilities would only rank about average today when compared to modern children trained in the Suzuki Method of instrumental teaching. Teaching methods, musical instruments, knowledge and other advancements in the field of music have resulted in the advancement of skills across the board.

The same applies to any field, including the voiceover industry. Advancements in technology, editing programs, hiring processes, training and access to resources have made the field much more crowded than it used to be. Such advancements have also pretty much ensured that only those who put in the extra effort required to stand out in that crowd are inclined to be the ones who meet with success.

Becoming a successful voiceover talent is not magic

Not Magic, but Straightforward Formula

While some people may appear to have been magically propelled to great success, chances are they were in some way, shape or form engaging in the concepts outlined by Ericsson. His straightforward formula for success involves:

  • Hard work (meaning strong effort is required)
  • Purposeful practice
  • Deliberate practice
  • More hard work
  • And then more hard work

And even though the formula for success is pretty straightforward, that doesn’t mean it’s easy. But, for those who make the commitment, it can pay off handsomely with amazing results.

Filed Under: For Voice Over Talent

Does Your Voice-Over Talent Income Have a Self-Imposed Ceiling?

January 13, 2016 by Debbie Grattan

Voice-Over Talent Income Ceiling

Whether you’re a seasoned professional in the VO world or brand-new to the game, a common denominator is that we’re in this business to get paid for doing something we’re good at and enjoy.

But how much do we really want to be paid?

Everyone has their own set of parameters and goals, depending on various factors. Many voice-over talents are content to make an extra few thousand dollars per year. On the other end of the spectrum, you have full-time voice talent who have built their livelihood around voice-over work, and their income goals are six figures and beyond.

Certainly, the constantly changing VO landscape caused by technology and the internet is having a huge impact on voice-over talent incomes across the board.

But do you realize that YOU may be your worst enemy in growing your income? Do you sometimes feel stuck in a rut that keeps your income well below what you perceive you should be making?

If so, then perhaps you’ve been subconsciously sabotaging your own ability to earn top dollar.

How’s that possible? It has a lot to do with whether or not you are fully aligned with your income goals.

Are You Aligned With Your Voice Over Goals?

One form of alignment refers to the agreement between your conscious and subconscious mind. And the subconscious mind is much more responsible for your day-to-day decisions and actions than most people realize.

Without proper alignment, you can end up struggling and spinning your wheels, even if you’re doing many of the “right” things in your business.

My husband worked for several years as a personal and business coach, so he’s been using this alignment concept for over a decade. His firsthand research and observation have demonstrated repeatedly that alignment is one of the pivotal components of what makes a person successful (or not) in ultimately achieving their goals.

Yes, many factors come into play in being a successful voice-over talent. Experience, talent, and ability, execution of good business and marketing practices are all very important.

However, alignment is also very important.

If I say, “I want to be a six-figure voice-over talent,” but my alignment is out of whack with that intention, then the odds of me reaching my goal in a sustainable way and in the quickest possible time frame are greatly diminished.

Consciously, I may be very clear and focused on what I want to accomplish. Subconsciously, however, I may have thoughts and emotions that directly conflict with the goals I’m trying to achieve. Those conflicts will undermine me as I go along my path, usually in very subtle ways. They will affect my thoughts, my state of being, and my willingness to take necessary actions.

The Over-Riding Rule of Alignment

There is an overriding rule regarding alignment: The subconscious mind always wins.

Although a person’s conscious mind can win out over the short-term (by getting results through focused and determined action), if alignment is not eventually achieved on the subconscious level, you’ll end up with a “rubberband effect.” Everything will eventually snap back to the previous level of results. It’s like “yo-yo” dieting, but instead of your weight, your life situation, relationships, or finances keep returning to a normal level.

Two steps forward, two steps back. Back to square one, over and over again. Remember the movie “Groundhog Day?”

Climbing Ladder of Success to Higher Voice-Over Talent IncomeThe experience can be very frustrating, and this phenomenon is a common reason why some entrepreneurs give up on their dreams. Anyone who successfully makes it to higher and higher levels of success has found a way to keep re-aligning with those higher and higher levels of success.

They have learned how to climb the ladder rung by rung and align with each new level as they go up.

Your Thoughts, Beliefs, and Emotions Can Reveal Whether You Are in Alignment

On the mental level, here are some examples of common thoughts that get in the way of entrepreneurs who are trying to ramp up their businesses:

– I’m afraid of failure/success
– I don’t deserve to make a lot of money
– No one in my family has ever been this successful, so I can’t do it either
– Who will I be if I become this successful?
– What if I become this successful and then lose it?

Hundreds of other possibilities of thoughts and beliefs can get in the way. This short list only scratches the surface. You may be able to consciously push them away, but if they are still active and strong in your subconscious mind, they still have power over you and will influence what you think, speak and do.

One of the primary tasks my husband worked on with his coaching clients was to identify the specific thoughts each person was holding onto (attached to) blocking their progress. Then he would use techniques to help them neutralize the power of those thoughts or beliefs. This process would shift them into proper alignment with their goals and intentions.

Your Voice-Over Talent Income Ceiling Works Like a Thermostat Setting

One obstacle for all business owners trying to boost their business is their comfort level with how much money they will make.

Your Voice-Over Talent Income Thermostat SettingJust like the thermostat in your home that controls how warm or cool you will allow the temperature to get, you have an internal thermostat that controls how much money you’re going to make daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly basis.

There’s a way to determine that exact number, and my husband/coach took me through the process many years ago to make sure my setting was where I wanted it to be. We check in on it every once in a while to confirm that it’s still set at a very high level. Generally, you want the ceiling (thermostat setting) set way above the level of income you want to make so that it can’t interfere with hitting your target income.

If I have a goal to be a six-figure voice-over talent, but my income ceiling is set at $40,000 per year, then the odds of me making more than $40,000 in one year are very low. Even if I have a great year and do hit my six-figure goal if that ceiling doesn’t get adjusted, then it will be tough for me to sustain that income moving forward, and I will likely snap back to a lower level in the near future.

If your goal is to make $100,000 per year, then your ceiling should be set somewhere above that… $150,000 or $200,000 would be fine. Or, if you want room for something big to show up, push it out to a million! The ability to reset this financial thermostat can make a huge difference for anyone struggling to get to a higher income level. Being 100% in alignment with making a certain income level can remove much of the “headwind effect,” making it easier to move forward to reach your goal.

Most importantly, proper alignment helps to better ensure that you won’t be knocked back to previous results once you reach your new goals. There is no repetitive “rubberband effect” once the alignment is properly set and maintained. The new setting allows you to make that progress while locking it in as your new baseline, your new – and successful – “normal.”

Want to Learn More About This? Please Leave a Comment

If you’d like to learn more about how to align with your voice-over talent income goals and know where your income ceiling is, please leave your comments below. If there is a lot of interest in this, I’ll write a follow-up and share more info about the alignment process I use in my voice-over business.

Filed Under: For Voice Over Talent Tagged With: voice over career

Tales From the VO Talent Trenches: When Sickness Hits, Do You Push On or Go to Bed?

October 27, 2015 by Debbie Grattan

tales from vo talent trenches: when sickness hits

I’m one of those people who never gets sick. Well, hardly ever.  So when what I assumed was the flu took me down early last week, I thought I was going to have to do my usual routine and just power through it. That’s what has always worked on those rare occasions when I feel a bug trying to get me.

It’s also the mindset that has come to permeate much of the nation, especially those in my generation who grew up with hard-working Midwestern ethics. We push through no matter what, getting the jobs done we said we’d do.

Since I work from home, pushing through is typically a bit easier for me than those who head into the office. I can still try to get a few things done and just take it easy when I start feeling tired. Even though I speak for a living, I can postpone some recording sessions, work on other things that don’t require my voice, and take frequent breaks. Or at least I usually could. Not this time.

When this sickness swelled into seven full days of not getting better, I finally asked my husband to take me to the doctor, where I was promptly diagnosed with pneumonia.  This was actually a relief to me, since now I could get a prescription and have some good ol’ Western medical assistance to get me on the mend.

I learned a few things on my health journey this time:

  • Seven days is just too dang long! Yeah, I know. Heading to the doctor can be a drag, especially if we’re not feeling well. But I now know to act sooner than a week down the line if I’m experiencing a fever that just won’t quit.
  • Day five is my new benchmark for seeking medical attention. Fever or no fever, day five of an ongoing illness that shows no signs of improvement is a good time to get a professional opinion.
  • Cost should not deter you. If you’re concerned about the cost of the doctor visit and prescription, think instead how much you’re missing in lost wages due to illness. As it happens, the antibiotic my doctor prescribed was $2.38 (after running it through my insurance)!
  • Don’t be afraid to accept help. Yes, this one can be a tough one, too, especially for us hard-working, independent-minded Midwesterners. But if you get offers from friends and family to help – bring over food, take the kids out, make a grocery run, drive someone to their practice, etc. – TAKE THEM UP ON IT!
  • Be honest with your clients. Trying to do the work when you’re simply not up to it can end in disaster – or at least a really lousy end product. I know, many of us think we can be superheroes who can still do a stellar job when plagued by a cold, flu — or even pneumonia. But, alas, we are merely humans. When I told my clients what was going on, I was surprised that in nearly every case, they were willing to wait for me to get better to complete their job. Thank you!
  • Show appreciation. Whether it’s to your pals who picked up your groceries, your clients who were willing to wait for their jobs, or a loving spouse who cooked you up chicken soup at 2 a.m., remember to say thank you! This counts triple in the case of the loving spouse, who deserves some special love when it’s all over.

  • And last but not least: “cough it up (and spit it out)!” Sorry for the explicit grossness of that, but it’s an important step to speed up recovery. It’s also a technique we’re still working to help my young son master. And yes, it truly does help!

Stay well and warm this cold and flu season. I wish you all good health! And even though you may not need a vaccine against pneumonia, a flu shot could be a good place to start.

Filed Under: For Voice Over Talent

Use Pressure to Help Propel Your Professional Voice Over Talent Career

September 15, 2015 by Debbie Grattan

Use Pressure to Help Propel Your Professional Voice Over Talent Career

I was chatting with my young teenage daughter this weekend about the pressures life brings. Even as a kid, there’s that pressure to get good grades, be accepted by your peers, make the team, win the game/race, get cast in the high school musical, and so on.

Pressure seems to start younger these days than it did for my generation. I don’t recall being so aware of the kind of pressure that most kids appear to feel in today’s world.

Competition and the ever-increasing abilities of young people to perform at higher and higher levels in every area are raising the bar all the time.

Pressure is here to stay. It is or is going to be a part of everyone’s life, so it’s essential to understand and develop a strategy to use pressure to one’s advantage.

It Seems We’re All Feeling a Lot More Pressure These Days

Being a professional voice over talent, business-owner, wife and mother of two children under the age of 14, I feel a nearly constant pressure to perform, in my professional and personal life, and to achieve real results on a daily basis.

That pressure (in varying degrees) has been there for as long as I can remember. Even before I had children, I felt pressure to reach my goals, earn a certain level of income, and be the type of person I wanted to be.

Pressure can be a good thing. Used effectively, it can help you achieve your results faster and more efficiently.

But, being under pressure doesn’t actually feel good most of the time. In fact, pressure probably stops many people from reaching their goals for the simple reason that it feels so uncomfortable. Attempting to reach any big goal is going to involve stepping into unfamiliar territory and putting yourself in situations that create a feeling of pressure. It’s pretty unavoidable.

Making Friends With Pressure = Easier Growth, Easier Life

I tried to explain to my daughter that pressure is a good thing as long as you make friends with it.

Use Pressure to Help Propel Your Professional Voice Over Talent CareerIt can be your best friend in the way that you might have a workout partner who always “encourages” you to do three more push-ups when your body’s telling you that IT is pretty sure you’re DONE doing push-ups.

Without pressure, I think I could become very lazy and unproductive.

My husband eventually got in on this conversation with my daughter and said that he prefers to exist with what he calls “Goldilocks Pressure.”

Not too much – Too much pressure can feel overwhelming and debilitating
Not too little – Too little pressure can lead to feeling unmotivated and unproductive
Just right = A moderate amount of pressure usually leads to progress and productivity

Just moving about his day and getting things done with moderate external (or internal) pressure being applied is his most productive state. He chooses to frame pressure as more of a positive “pulling” energy which helps him reach completion of tasks, thereby causing a reduction of the pressure in the moment.

In the Short Term, Too Much Pressure Can Still Be Manageable

Lately, however, he’s been feeling a lot more pressure (as general manager of my voice over business) since we are in the midst of several business upgrades with website redesign, branding, demo production and re-tooling our marketing strategies. So, now he’s working harder and for longer hours, to “clear the decks” and get back to that Goldilocks level.

Instead of back-pedaling in a retreat mode away from the pressure, he’s responding with more action and more energy.

The danger here is that if this goes on for too long, it can become a source of burnout and exhaustion. But, for shorter time frames (weeks or in this case, even months), it can be manageable.

For me, I have learned to function well under some degree of pressure most of the time.

Maybe it’s from my live theater days, or from being in the fast paced world of LA auditions, where we actors are forced daily to get out of our comfort zones and at least try to be extraordinary. It’s an exciting and exhilarating form of pressure and it really helped me grow as an actor and as a business owner.

Even though I’m not auditioning for on-camera work in LA anymore (I moved away several years ago), I continue to use what I learned from that experience in my voiceover business. Finding and maintaining that “Goldilocks” fit is my new gold standard, as each week I’m juggling a dozen different clients and projects, managing deadlines, answering urgent requests, actively participating in social media, and checking off projects as I send them out.

What is your relationship to pressure like? Do you feel a lot more pressure in your life and business now than ever before?  How do you use it to your advantage? Has pressure increased or decreased for you in recent years? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts and experiences!

Filed Under: For Voice Over Talent Tagged With: voice over career

An Artist’s Simple Formula for Success and Balance

August 31, 2015 by Debbie Grattan

Finding Balance with Artistic Work and Life

I’m always fascinated by artists… Of all kinds. This weekend, I was a spectator at Art Beat, a showcase of local artists in my community here in the Midwest.

Represented on several blocks of downtown real estate on a rainy Saturday was everything from dance, music and theatre, to culinary arts, painting, ceramics, sculpture and creative writing. My daughter even got in on the act, with her musical and writing talents being showcased at a couple of the booths.

Artists Face a Unique Set of Challenges on the Road to Success

An artist is a rare breed. A successful artist, rarer still. While we all have our individual talents, there are only a few who are able to rise up and gain recognition in a world where it keeps getting harder and harder to be noticed and have a sustainable career “doing” your art.

What allows an artist to actually make their livelihood practicing their craft?  It’s a combination of a lot of things. But, on top of all the things you have to do, it is very important to keep a balance between the creative process and the all-important selling process of your artistic products and/or services.

Watching this short segment on CBS Sunday Morning this weekend, I thought about how the successful professional musician profiled here distilled a great three-point strategy for maintaining a balance between the creativity in his craft and the marketing of his art.

Musician and composer, Chad Lawson shares how he spends most of his time going back and forth between two keyboards:

– His piano keyboard; to create, “meditate and to worship,” and,
– His computer keyboard for marketing, promoting, and making contacts that will lead to gigs and greater awareness of his music.

And, to top it off, he goes for a run each day, to “sweat everything out, almost like a mental shower!”

An Artist's Simple Formula for Success and Balance

He breaks it down to this simple formula:

Do your art, market your art, and re-charge for your mind/body/spirit on a daily basis.

Obviously, it’s easy to outline these three key points, and a completely different thing to understand and develop an actual strategy that puts them into action in your own life.

What he doesn’t say in his words, but demonstrates in his success, is that he’s used discipline in his life to achieve his goals. Knowing what to do is one thing. Taking what you know, and making a plan of action, and then following through on that plan, daily, for YEARS, is what creates success.

As veteran voiceover professionals, we get asked frequently by industry newcomers, “how do I do it?” I say: Watch this 4 minute explanation by Chad Lawson, and apply these concepts to your voiceover business goals.

There is no magic bullet. There’s no fast track to long-term success, although sometimes it can look like there is for a lucky few.  It’s just learning your craft, practicing your craft, finding the market for your craft, and maintaining a balance (emotionally, physically and spiritually) as you do what is necessary.

Once you find that perfect balance, then it’s a matter of doing it day after day after day after day. Wash…Rinse…Repeat!

Filed Under: For Voice Over Talent Tagged With: voice over career

Life as a Working Actor Requires Perseverance, Tenacity and Patience

June 22, 2015 by Debbie Grattan

Working Voice-Over Actor: Similar Pace, Slightly Less Desperate Edge

If You MUST Act, Do it For the Right Reasons

For anyone who gets into acting for egoic reasons, to feel special, famous, have adoring fans, etc… This truth is a harsh wake-up call. If you’re in it to be rich and famous, you’re likely in it for the wrong reason and it’s probably going to be a very painful ride sooner or later. Even if you have a lucky break early in your career, it is extremely difficult to sustain a level of success without a deep love FOR and desire to BE an actor.

The unemployment rate for actors, according to the Actor’s Equity Association hovers around 90%. I’ve heard the stat for many years that at any given time, only 3% of actors are actually working (in paid acting jobs).

The United States Department of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics recently came out with a report that stated that actors “endure long periods of unemployment, intense competition for roles, and frequent rejections in auditions.” — Unemployment is a Lifestyle For Actors and Now Many Others Too

At best, most actors scramble from audition to audition, add a few bookings to their resume, and end up with barely enough cash from their acting jobs to pay their rent and other living expenses. Most have to take on other jobs just to make ends meet. And the pursuit of the next gig is relentless. It’s always about the next gig, the next paycheck, the next chance to show what you can do.

Even if a stage actor reaches their goal of making it to Broadway, the cost of living in New York City is very challenging if you’re trying to make ends meet on an actor’s salary. A typical Broadway contract for a non-star ensemble role could be $1700 – $2000/week. And just a month’s rent in NYC could take 1-2 week’s pay!

Of course, the reward of getting to act in front of a huge live audience or in a movie is the prize that everyone is chasing. Some of my experiences on stage are among the most happy and memorable moments of my life. But, these types of peak experiences come at a very high price.

Working Voice Over Actor: Slightly Less Desperate Edge Than Traditional Actor

The Plight of the Working Actor
Image Credit: Ana Delao & Cameron Stiehl

Life as a working actor of any type demands a strong will and the ability to be able to roll with the ebbs and flows of an inherently unstable vocation. It requires not only the talent and creativity to understand how to interpret words on a page in any given context, but also tremendous perseverance, tenacity, strength, flexibility, patience, finesse and business sense to find and pursue the actual work.

Given it’s inherent instability, a career as a working actor is one that most people are probably not cut out for. As a professional voice actor, when you’re no longer driven by the next audition or booking, when the marketing, website maintenance, blogging, networking, cold calling and other chores to stay in the game become cumbersome, then maybe it’s time to re-assess goals and make sure it’s still something you want to do.

I’m sure the Tony Award winners from this year’s show are still basking in the glory of being awarded “best” for the season. But even for each of them, the show will eventually close and it will be time to look for the next gig. Ah, the life of an actor!

Go back to Part 1: “The Troublesome Plight of the Working Actor (and Voice Actor, Too)”
Go back to Part 2: “The Working Actor’s Relentless Pursuit of the Next Acting Gig”

Photo Credit: Will Act for Food is a photo essay collaboration between Cameron Stiehl and photographer, Ana Delao. Set in and around San Francisco’s Civic Center, this collection of photos shows the current state of the arts in America where many artists either work at corporate day jobs, relegating their passion to hobby status, or face poverty. Please visit http://www.cameronstiehl.com for more information.

Filed Under: For Voice Over Talent

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Debbie Grattan is a top-rated professional female voice over talent with more than 25 years of experience delivering voice over services worldwide. She regularly records commercial voice overs for radio and tv as well as infomercial voice overs and direct response marketing for children's toys, health, fitness and beauty products. Other specialties include female narration voice overs for corporate narration, web videos, tutorials, explainer videos and technical medical narration. Debbie also provides phone-related voice over services including phone prompts, messages-on-hold and outbound phone marketing for companies in the United States and Canada.

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